Felt And Rain
billd
Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:58 pm
I am having a roof put on In Florida. They started the tear off and realized the manufacturer sent the wrong shingles.
They have felt on the garage and a small portion of the house. The shingles will not be in until next week.
My question is will the felt be ok not covered? The contractor says yes but I think it should at least have plastic on there. What mil?
Does this compromise the integrity and durability of the materail if left in the elements.
Thanks
Bill
They have felt on the garage and a small portion of the house. The shingles will not be in until next week.
My question is will the felt be ok not covered? The contractor says yes but I think it should at least have plastic on there. What mil?
Does this compromise the integrity and durability of the materail if left in the elements.
Thanks
Bill
Pride_roofing
Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:33 pm
Anytime you have felt exposed to UV and wet conditions it should be removed and new felt installed. It will wrinkle and that will tellagraph through the new shingles and leave a bumpy look. If they just want to put over it they are cutting corners.
G-Tape
Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:45 am
I would tell them to put a tarp on it to protect it. I wouldn't trust just felt on the roof.
I would inspect the felt before they overlay it. Like Pride said, the weather could do some real damage to the felt and it will telegraph through the shingles.
It shouldn't be too hard for them to throw a tarp over everything.
I would inspect the felt before they overlay it. Like Pride said, the weather could do some real damage to the felt and it will telegraph through the shingles.
It shouldn't be too hard for them to throw a tarp over everything.
dougger222
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:11 am
Some of you roofers out there may find what I'm about to type strange but here goes.
About 10 or so years ago my father tore off a 10/12 house and didn't have time to roof the back piece which was about 8 or 9 squares. The felt he used was the good top dollar fiberglass felt and it was hand nailed with lots of roofing nails. 6 months later in the Spring he went back to the house (no tarps were used) and finished the job with not one drop of water in the house. The paper was still in as good of shape as it was when it was installed. When I asked him the other day if he thought that felt could decay with age he laughed and said, sure after maybe after 50 years.
When he used to run 5 crews he took on lots of new construction homes and when his crews turned on him and underbid his largest builder he went solo so he found himself swamped for a while. One homeowner said he wanted him to roof his new house. The best my father could do was paper it and roof it a couple months later. Prior to closing on the home he finally made it out to the job to shingle what he had papered some two months later, not one drop of rain made it into the house!
On one strong wind storm he had a building papered with the good fiberglass felt. The morning after the wind storm he stood in amazement when he looked up to his paper job to find it all intact and was blown away when he saw shingles on the surounding homes missing.
Personally in the this sue crazy society we all live in now I'd never leave a lived in house with just felt on it for more than a day.
About 10 or so years ago my father tore off a 10/12 house and didn't have time to roof the back piece which was about 8 or 9 squares. The felt he used was the good top dollar fiberglass felt and it was hand nailed with lots of roofing nails. 6 months later in the Spring he went back to the house (no tarps were used) and finished the job with not one drop of water in the house. The paper was still in as good of shape as it was when it was installed. When I asked him the other day if he thought that felt could decay with age he laughed and said, sure after maybe after 50 years.
When he used to run 5 crews he took on lots of new construction homes and when his crews turned on him and underbid his largest builder he went solo so he found himself swamped for a while. One homeowner said he wanted him to roof his new house. The best my father could do was paper it and roof it a couple months later. Prior to closing on the home he finally made it out to the job to shingle what he had papered some two months later, not one drop of rain made it into the house!
On one strong wind storm he had a building papered with the good fiberglass felt. The morning after the wind storm he stood in amazement when he looked up to his paper job to find it all intact and was blown away when he saw shingles on the surounding homes missing.
Personally in the this sue crazy society we all live in now I'd never leave a lived in house with just felt on it for more than a day.
Pride_roofing
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:20 am
Well personally with Liabilty insurance at the cost it is today I would never leave any home without a tarp overnight. Secondly It kind of upsets the owners. Question why on earth did it take months without shingles on the roof? Either way it layed down the spec for 15# is not for prolonged use when rain hits it, it is ruined and any quality minded contractor would never leave it out exposed to the elements. I spend about 2k on tarps a year and its worth it to me. Hey insurance to high to begin with. Besides that i would like referals not pist of callin the BBB customers. Lastly anyone that would leave 15# exposed over any period of time without removing it when shingling/ tarping before is not to resposible.
Master
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:27 am
Wet 15# lays flat when it dries out.
QRFL
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:30 am
well now that this subject is out ,down here there are a lot of companies who lay down 2-ply #15 on low slopes overnight if call for rain then the shingler comes and in the morning will just make cuts on every buckle to lay it down as he shingles, i always wonder it looks like its wrong but thinking of it you desttroy it with nails also.
ok whatcha got guys
ok whatcha got guys
Pride_roofing
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:38 am
flat but with bumps up here in wonderful michigan. Then it is cut hence whats the point look we can agruee this one untill the day is old simply put the guy is lazy that wont tarp it. He could care less. Just another SHUMCK.
dougger222
Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:31 am
The new roof that sat for 2 months with only felt never leaked a drop of water PERIOD.
The older house which sat with felt only for 6 months never leaked a drop of water PERIOD.
Remember, my father has been in the roofing business for 33 years, he is a second generation roofer.
Back in the mid 90's his roofing business was huge doing up to 600 units a year for just one builder, his name got around and his reputation grew. If you asked any roofer in the Twin Cities of they've heard of our last name most would say yes. There are two uncles, two brothers, several cousins and myself who all roof in all parts of the cities.
If your saying my father is lousy roofer because of two examples of how long felt can stay on the roof and still be 100% effective and 100% usable I should send you some pictures of some work he's done. It's funny when we drive around the cities and he can litteraly point to hundres of houses in any given hour of driving and say, "I did that house". It's overwelming to think of the scope of the work he's done of the years. He is the best qaulity roofer I've yet to see in person or on the internet. His knowleadge of all aspect of roofing is amazing. From union working to fighting his way to make money in the 80's by doing hundreds of 3-7 layer tear offs in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
You say you have have 35 years experiance and your work in your pics seem to prove you are one of the few top notch roofer around.
All I stated was facts in my first post to back up some myths of felt paper. Remember Globe paper? How about Tarco felt? Pretty lousy felt!!! When you pay for top quality felt you get a much better product that will hold up way better than the cheap Home Depot or Menards stuff.
Trust me on this, with the new lousy quality felt it's only good felt when it's covered with shingles!
Speaking of insurance what a rip ah? $3,000 a year for myself and never a single claim 10 years running (1 million general roofing liability with no employees). My father in over 30 years has his first claim a 50 million dollar law suit handed to his old builder from 50 homeowners due to problems not related to the roof at all. To pass the blame and dollar on each and every exterior sub involved in the building process gets drug into the law suit. What a mess! You know who will make out if the fault is given to the builder and it's subs? The lawyers...
What's worse is now one of my builders has decided to cut costs to save on a 40 unit town home development and has Mexicans doing the roofing and framing and has even changed lumber yards to pinch penny's. Wonder who there going to call in 2 years when the roofs leak or the shingles blow off when the laborers are back in Mexico?
Between my father and I we are left with only 3 builders that know quality and pay for it, he has two of them I only have the one. More and more houses are sitting empty and the builders are getting nervous and are trying to build houses cheaper and cheaper now, it may not look good in 5 years from now at this rate.\
Well, I'll get off my soap box now!
The older house which sat with felt only for 6 months never leaked a drop of water PERIOD.
Remember, my father has been in the roofing business for 33 years, he is a second generation roofer.
Back in the mid 90's his roofing business was huge doing up to 600 units a year for just one builder, his name got around and his reputation grew. If you asked any roofer in the Twin Cities of they've heard of our last name most would say yes. There are two uncles, two brothers, several cousins and myself who all roof in all parts of the cities.
If your saying my father is lousy roofer because of two examples of how long felt can stay on the roof and still be 100% effective and 100% usable I should send you some pictures of some work he's done. It's funny when we drive around the cities and he can litteraly point to hundres of houses in any given hour of driving and say, "I did that house". It's overwelming to think of the scope of the work he's done of the years. He is the best qaulity roofer I've yet to see in person or on the internet. His knowleadge of all aspect of roofing is amazing. From union working to fighting his way to make money in the 80's by doing hundreds of 3-7 layer tear offs in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
You say you have have 35 years experiance and your work in your pics seem to prove you are one of the few top notch roofer around.
All I stated was facts in my first post to back up some myths of felt paper. Remember Globe paper? How about Tarco felt? Pretty lousy felt!!! When you pay for top quality felt you get a much better product that will hold up way better than the cheap Home Depot or Menards stuff.
Trust me on this, with the new lousy quality felt it's only good felt when it's covered with shingles!
Speaking of insurance what a rip ah? $3,000 a year for myself and never a single claim 10 years running (1 million general roofing liability with no employees). My father in over 30 years has his first claim a 50 million dollar law suit handed to his old builder from 50 homeowners due to problems not related to the roof at all. To pass the blame and dollar on each and every exterior sub involved in the building process gets drug into the law suit. What a mess! You know who will make out if the fault is given to the builder and it's subs? The lawyers...
What's worse is now one of my builders has decided to cut costs to save on a 40 unit town home development and has Mexicans doing the roofing and framing and has even changed lumber yards to pinch penny's. Wonder who there going to call in 2 years when the roofs leak or the shingles blow off when the laborers are back in Mexico?
Between my father and I we are left with only 3 builders that know quality and pay for it, he has two of them I only have the one. More and more houses are sitting empty and the builders are getting nervous and are trying to build houses cheaper and cheaper now, it may not look good in 5 years from now at this rate.\
Well, I'll get off my soap box now!
Pride_roofing
Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:45 am
First off i did not say that. Now i will say something. If you have insurance and are leaving roofs untarped with anyones home your a FOOL. With living in MN and no tarps just felt wow what are they putting in the water crack? I have seen guys do things 20 + years and never know it but that is just foolish. It is unprofessional, risky and just plain lazy in my eyes. Secondly i am talking to you not your father what he did is not you so thats a dead subject. I only know of 1 roofing company that really makes money in new construction and well they do somehwere in the 3000 units + a year. Personally i will not lower my prices and do 12/12 roofs for 89 a sqaure w/ materials. I feel this whole post was started for billd not your father so go give him a call. Billd i think they should have realized the shingles were wrong before tearing the roof off. I would suggest tearing the existing felt off after you get the shingles because when it becomes bumpy thats it they cut and then what is the point. Rant and rave but you know you are talkin out ur poo poo. So just stop It is not reccomended by any manufacturer of shingles, felt so why on earth would you do it. Lastly why on earth would you tear someones roof off and just leave it for 6 months without shingles? That is well messed up beyond any of my dreams. Im sure the customer was so happy they made your people call there people. Personally i think your a fool for even saying that PERIOD!
dougger222
Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:17 pm
Billd, your roof should be fine with just paper for a while as long as the roofers used good felt and used lots of tax. Tarps are a very good idea if the roofer contractor does not own any tell him to buy some.
PRIDE, your user name says it all. Your know it all aproach to your posts are rather worthless as a whole to this small roofing comunity here on this site.
This post was started by billd asking about the performance in general of roofing felt, I gave two perfect examples of how well felt can hold up both done by my father and not me, your right on that one. When you start slamming a fellow roofer you don't even know is when your character needs questioning. You may think everything you do is perfect or right with all your 35 years of experiance but what you say on here is 100% opinion as is what I say. Michigan and Minnesota are two totally different geographics, what may work in Michigan may not work in Minnesota and vise versa. At no time did I lie on my part or the part of my father with his once very questionable roofing practice, just gave facts that you couldn't seem to live with. Actually we are both very carefull roofers who won't even think about tearing off a roof with a 10% chance of rain. Like I said in the last post in our 43+ years roofing experiance we have one insurance claim which isn't even to blame on the roofing labor. On 85% of tear offs we do the section of roof that gets tore off in a day gets shingled in. Usually if felt is left on overnight without tarps there is a 0% chance of rain.
$90 a square with materials for a 12/12 ouch! not worth it for that pitch for that price. If a dollar a shingle laid is not made on a 12/12 new roof I'll let another roofer have at it. Evidentally new construction is not as good in Michigan as it is in Minnesota.
My first year with insurance doing only new roofs I only made $78,000 on the books, that was working on average 20-25 hours a week on the roof. I was 20 years old at the time. Last year with 7 tear offs done all of which were deffective Certainteed shingles with the only income being strickly labor my business (no employees) brought in just shy of only $150,000, ok I guess for a 25 year old roofer, last year if I was being liberal I'd say 30 hours per week were spent on the roof.
In 1994 with five crews my father roofing business mind you doing only new roofs for builders brought in $248,000. After paying out the subs he was left paying income tax on $110,000, decent for papering two roofs in a one year period. My uncle doing roofs for just one builder anually brings in over $100,000. I could go on and on with facts and numbers but with your thick scull it wouldn't make any difference.
Doing new roofs primarily in the past 10 years at the age of 26 I've been blessed with owning two homes a 14 acre hobby farm in the country and a 1 acre home in the city, total value just shy of half a million. My wife drives a fully loaded 2000 Ford Excursion 4x4 Powersroke and a 95 Bronco 5.8 4x4 and my work truck is a nicely equiped 99 F250 4x4 Powerstroke. There are two show cars in the garage not to mention pretty much any toy a guy 26 years old would love to own. Did you say there was no money in new construction? Your a unique and funny individual.
Just for spite don't bother responding to this post unless you have any nuetral information to give to this wonderful forum. Your single minded posts are sort of a waste of good bandwith. Ok, I'm done now time to get some things done around the house.
Everyone, have a nice day and wonderfull weekend!!!
PRIDE, your user name says it all. Your know it all aproach to your posts are rather worthless as a whole to this small roofing comunity here on this site.
This post was started by billd asking about the performance in general of roofing felt, I gave two perfect examples of how well felt can hold up both done by my father and not me, your right on that one. When you start slamming a fellow roofer you don't even know is when your character needs questioning. You may think everything you do is perfect or right with all your 35 years of experiance but what you say on here is 100% opinion as is what I say. Michigan and Minnesota are two totally different geographics, what may work in Michigan may not work in Minnesota and vise versa. At no time did I lie on my part or the part of my father with his once very questionable roofing practice, just gave facts that you couldn't seem to live with. Actually we are both very carefull roofers who won't even think about tearing off a roof with a 10% chance of rain. Like I said in the last post in our 43+ years roofing experiance we have one insurance claim which isn't even to blame on the roofing labor. On 85% of tear offs we do the section of roof that gets tore off in a day gets shingled in. Usually if felt is left on overnight without tarps there is a 0% chance of rain.
$90 a square with materials for a 12/12 ouch! not worth it for that pitch for that price. If a dollar a shingle laid is not made on a 12/12 new roof I'll let another roofer have at it. Evidentally new construction is not as good in Michigan as it is in Minnesota.
My first year with insurance doing only new roofs I only made $78,000 on the books, that was working on average 20-25 hours a week on the roof. I was 20 years old at the time. Last year with 7 tear offs done all of which were deffective Certainteed shingles with the only income being strickly labor my business (no employees) brought in just shy of only $150,000, ok I guess for a 25 year old roofer, last year if I was being liberal I'd say 30 hours per week were spent on the roof.
In 1994 with five crews my father roofing business mind you doing only new roofs for builders brought in $248,000. After paying out the subs he was left paying income tax on $110,000, decent for papering two roofs in a one year period. My uncle doing roofs for just one builder anually brings in over $100,000. I could go on and on with facts and numbers but with your thick scull it wouldn't make any difference.
Doing new roofs primarily in the past 10 years at the age of 26 I've been blessed with owning two homes a 14 acre hobby farm in the country and a 1 acre home in the city, total value just shy of half a million. My wife drives a fully loaded 2000 Ford Excursion 4x4 Powersroke and a 95 Bronco 5.8 4x4 and my work truck is a nicely equiped 99 F250 4x4 Powerstroke. There are two show cars in the garage not to mention pretty much any toy a guy 26 years old would love to own. Did you say there was no money in new construction? Your a unique and funny individual.
Just for spite don't bother responding to this post unless you have any nuetral information to give to this wonderful forum. Your single minded posts are sort of a waste of good bandwith. Ok, I'm done now time to get some things done around the house.
Everyone, have a nice day and wonderfull weekend!!!
dougger222
Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:28 pm
Again PRIDE, I had to read your last post and think to myself why would another fellow roofer call a person a fool for stating facts. You can keep doing things your way and probably make a good go for yourself and I'll do the same.
Another fact is this, my father in all his roofing years has not spend one penny on advertising all his work comes from word of mouth. On the other hand I've spent $3,500 in the past two years on advertising and would be lucky to have signed contracts for half that amount. Word of mouth is what keeps my tear offs comming as well as my father.
Thanks must be given at some point to Certainteed for making such horrible shingles as the Horizon Shangle and the Sealdon 15, 20, and 25. Without these shingles on the market I'd have 5 bids out now instead of 25. Perhaps there are so many deffective roofs here in my area of MN because the Shakopee Certainteed plant is within an hour of most major cities in the Twin Cities. With the huge hail storms of 98 in the cites in the next 5-8 years there will be litterally hundreds of millions of dollars of deffective roofs that will need to be replaced thanks to who? Certainteed.
PRIDE, why don't you tell all the other roofers out here how easy it is to be certified by Certainteed? Now a days if your roofing add in the phone book has a Certainteed stamp it means absolutely nothing.
Another fact is this, my father in all his roofing years has not spend one penny on advertising all his work comes from word of mouth. On the other hand I've spent $3,500 in the past two years on advertising and would be lucky to have signed contracts for half that amount. Word of mouth is what keeps my tear offs comming as well as my father.
Thanks must be given at some point to Certainteed for making such horrible shingles as the Horizon Shangle and the Sealdon 15, 20, and 25. Without these shingles on the market I'd have 5 bids out now instead of 25. Perhaps there are so many deffective roofs here in my area of MN because the Shakopee Certainteed plant is within an hour of most major cities in the Twin Cities. With the huge hail storms of 98 in the cites in the next 5-8 years there will be litterally hundreds of millions of dollars of deffective roofs that will need to be replaced thanks to who? Certainteed.
PRIDE, why don't you tell all the other roofers out here how easy it is to be certified by Certainteed? Now a days if your roofing add in the phone book has a Certainteed stamp it means absolutely nothing.
Pride_roofing
Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:39 pm
I dont care what you have. Point being anyone that would state they would leave felt on a roof for 6 months without shingles is well insaine. Since it was never designed for that. Secondly New construction is well a complete waste of time in this state. Sounds like you are doing well. Last month company made 289k and change how you do? Well you only read what you want what for father did is his thing not yours. 5.8 mill last year i guess i must know something. As far as his roof 1.5 mill house i would have someones head if they did that. The contractor made a mistake and should have never touched his home with out the proper materials. And since we have no idea what type of felt was used and well its hurricane season its safe to say that problems can arise but i only deal with it problems that i can foresee. I am glad you work 30 hours a week for 100k thats great. All iam saying is there should be a tarp and your father got lucky with the 6 months of felt.
Now am also certified by GAF and the test is the same. I never use sealdon or horizon shingles they are garbage. xt-25's and landmarks i start with. 3500 a year in advertising is not alot. I do about 6 to 10 roofs a week in the summer that are referal leads. Im not gonna argue with you about this guys felt.
PERIOD SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN LEFT WITHOUT A TARP AND I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE SAYING THAT WHY NOT READ SOME MORE.
In final when a national roofing mag. comes to you and writes a small artical on you and your company ok then openup talk a big game.
I step on toes when they openup about what they do not understand. 56% of roofs nationaly last year done incorrectly. You just dont understand there is drywall under that wood. I guess doing new construction all the time you have forgoten that simple fact. No wonder 9 out of 10 homes floors squeek and they have to glue it down to stop that due to lack of care, quality and commitment. How long is your warranty 18 months?
Now am also certified by GAF and the test is the same. I never use sealdon or horizon shingles they are garbage. xt-25's and landmarks i start with. 3500 a year in advertising is not alot. I do about 6 to 10 roofs a week in the summer that are referal leads. Im not gonna argue with you about this guys felt.
PERIOD SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN LEFT WITHOUT A TARP AND I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE SAYING THAT WHY NOT READ SOME MORE.
In final when a national roofing mag. comes to you and writes a small artical on you and your company ok then openup talk a big game.
I step on toes when they openup about what they do not understand. 56% of roofs nationaly last year done incorrectly. You just dont understand there is drywall under that wood. I guess doing new construction all the time you have forgoten that simple fact. No wonder 9 out of 10 homes floors squeek and they have to glue it down to stop that due to lack of care, quality and commitment. How long is your warranty 18 months?
QRFL
Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:26 pm
i remember going to a leak call for an open beam ceiling wich was leaking even with the felt installed right, the cold rainy weather made the bottom edge of the felt curl-up holding very small amount of water making it run thru the fasteners about 6 squares worth!!, i ve never seen this before i always used to leave my roof watertight with felt but this open beam one leaked a lot!! , i also have seen felt exposed to uv a few days how it gets brittle and i am sure that once you nail the shingles the nails wont seal around the felt as good as fresh felt,
i say this to billd :
if bad weather is coming .... cover it!!!!!!
it is my opinion that if felt is exposed to uv for long period it will lower the performance of your roof, i would think is very minimum if only for one week do.
i say this to billd :
if bad weather is coming .... cover it!!!!!!
it is my opinion that if felt is exposed to uv for long period it will lower the performance of your roof, i would think is very minimum if only for one week do.
G-Tape
Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:48 pm
With all this felt talk and leaving it out in the weather, I have a buddy that makes and selld WindStrips. It is a great felt hold down if the felt will be exposed for a few days to a few weeks.
http://www.windstrips.com/
Then after you use the Windstrips and you guys start roofing, you will have to use G-Tape to make the job perfect, fast and safe.
http://www.gtape.com/
http://www.windstrips.com/
Then after you use the Windstrips and you guys start roofing, you will have to use G-Tape to make the job perfect, fast and safe.
http://www.gtape.com/
